also this article herehttp://www.calledtocommunion.com/2014/02/do-the-saints-pray-for-us-a-response-to-perry-sukstorf-and-marcia-fleischman/ discusses Do the saints pray for us? from comment 71
You wrote:
“I would adopt that thesis IF I had some objective basis to support the proposition that the departed saints could hear our requests.”
“I would adopt that thesis IF I had some objective basis to support the proposition that the departed saints could hear our requests.”
One basis for this proposition is the image of departed saints reflected in Revelation 5:8 – They are depicted as actively offering up the prayers of those on earth. The act of offering anything requires the conscious intention to do so. Thus, the Biblical data demands that the saints in heaven are conscious of our prayers, at least in a general way, and associate themselves with them by intention.
The biblical data also support the idea that a saint’s mediation may be possible whether or not the saint is directly conscious of our petition. In the 2 Kings passage referenced above, we find an instance of a miraculous relic. Originally, this was the principle way in which the Church sought the mediation of saints – through contact with their relics. The Blessed Virgin Mary is an exception, obviously, since she left no first class relics. The “sub tuum” prayer (from 2nd or 3rd century Alexandria) is thus an important witness that these two kinds of petition existed side by side in antiquity.
Finally, the question of devotion to the saints cannot be separated from the liturgical and devotional history of the Church. To say, “I will only practice devotions that I find completely and overtly represented in Scripture” is to adopt an attitude towards Christian worship that would have made Christian worship impossible prior to the formation of the canon. This is why the fathers of the 2nd century took the belief and practice of apostolic churches to be the norm – rather than appeal to an inchoate and yet unfinalized New Testament. So, as a Catholic, I would also add that we know the saints hear our prayers because the practice of the earliest Christians (which is normative) presumes it, and because the Church teaches that they hear our prayers.
On a related note, have you considered how the Protestant “regulative principle of worship,” if strictly applied, would in fact destroy certain mainstays of Protestant worship? For instance, Scripture nowhere represents baptism performed during a Eucharistic assembly or Sunday liturgy. Should we therefore not baptize on Sundays or in Church? Likewise, Scripture nowhere shows us explicitly that communion was ever administered to women. Should we therefore withhold communion from women?
Inevitably, therefore, the question of devotion to the saints is connected to another question: How do we know what is or is not a binding norm for Christian worship?
from comment 72:
from comment 72:
From antiquity to the Reformation, such devotion was the universal practice of the Church. It remains the practice of those Christian groups that can actually trace their history to antiquity.
The only systematic opposition to such devotion arose in only one corner of the Christian world (western europe), and very late (16th century). To reject such devotion is to take a stance at odds with what was, prior to that rejection, the universal witness of the Christian faithful.
The only systematic opposition to such devotion arose in only one corner of the Christian world (western europe), and very late (16th century). To reject such devotion is to take a stance at odds with what was, prior to that rejection, the universal witness of the Christian faithful.
from the same link comment 74
I don’t know if it’ll be a helpful observation or not, but my own reasoning (as I was in the process of “reading my way into the Church”) went as follows:
1. The early Christians asked the saints in heaven for their intercession;
2. They did this prior to the finalization of the New Testament canon, and in a widespread way;
3. The Jews did this in a less-formalized way prior to the time of Christ (and still do today; e.g. prayers at Rachel’s tomb, which is indirectly referenced in the New Testament itself: “a voice heard in Ramah”), so that it seems to be a continuation of the ongoing practice of the People of God, rather than a reversal or interruption;
4. The persons involved in the finalization of the New Testament canon (Athanasius and Damasus and Augustine and other bishops of the late 4th century) clearly practiced asking the intercession of the saints;
5. The persons involved in the finalization of the New Testament canon relied on their understanding of the Apostolic Tradition and the history and practices of the Church from the apostolic age onward in doing so;
6. IF their understanding of the Apostolic Tradition and the history and practices of the Church was wrong to hold that saints’ intercession as an orthodox and ancient practice, THEN this suggests significant error in their understanding of the Apostolic Tradition and the history and practices of the Church.
7. BUT, if their understanding of the Apostolic Tradition and the history and practices of the Church was badly mistaken, then that undermines our ability to trust the New Testament canon they’ve handed on to us, which we accept at least partly on their testimony.
8. IN WHICH CASE, it would be hard to argue that, either from Apostolic Tradition OR from the Bible, it is possible to know what orthodox Christian doctrine and practice actually IS. This view leads to theological “liberalism” and makes Christian orthodoxy an unknown thing, lost in the mists of time.
9. ON THE OTHER HAND, if the understanding of Church practice and of Apostolic Tradition of the canonizers of the New Testament is solid and reliable (even if it isn’t infallible), then we can have great confidence that we have the “right” New Testament.
10. BUT IN THAT CASE, any suggestion that asking the saints’ intercession is forbidden by New Testament Christianity is dubious, for these men, whose understanding of Church practice and Apostolic Tradition is sufficiently reliable to give us the canon, also asked the saints’ intercession. (And saw no contradiction between that practice and the New Testament canon.)
11. IN EITHER CASE, in proportion to the degree we mistrust the orthodoxy of those through whom we receive the New Testament canon, the reliability of that canon is reduced.
In the above, I’m not making an argument from absolutes, like a geometric proof.
But I’m asking whether something passes the “smell test,” in an abstract kind of way.
I don’t think it passes the “smell test” to say: “Yeah, without the testimony of the ancient Christians, we’d have no certain and uniform New Testament; but we’re going to use the New Testament and our own 21st-century, culturally-post-Christian interpretation of it, to disregard their testimony.”
Having reasoned that far, I ask myself: What does it *mean* if asking saints for their intercession is orthodox Christian practice?
Well, it means I grew up in a branch of Christianity which had lost some of the ancient practice (Southern Baptists). But that’s neither a big deal, nor much surprise: As many variations as there are, it stands to reason that most of them have messed up something; if I assume from the outset that my own hasn’t, it’s more likely because of inertia and bias on my own part, than because I’ve exhaustively analyzed every issue.
But what does it mean, if it’s NOT orthodox?
Well, my argument pretty much suggests the answer to that question. If the early Christian witness is in error here or there but not in the main; we can still get by. But if everybody everywhere is messing up something badly, while being oblivious to it? It makes it hard to argue that anyone then could be sure what “Christianity” really was supposed to be. (Let alone now.) It pushes me towards a “Christianity” which is anything I want it to be, probably influenced largely by tropes from Hollywood movies (like the “Druidism” of those poor folk who gather around Stonehenge once a year with fantasy-movie daggers and vaguely Greek-looking robes). It means any modern version of Christianity is more of a “reconstruction” than a “continuation.”
And if THAT is our modern situation, then I must ask about the Holy Spirit what Elijah asked about Baal atop Mount Carmel: What has He been *doing* all this time? Was He taking a nap for several hundred years? Was He away on a journey? What about this “leading us into all truth” promise?
I wonder sometimes, if the reason that the Jesus Seminar liberals and folks like Shelby Spong lost their faith wasn’t by this kind of process: They didn’t want to accept that the Early Church was *right*; but barring that, there was no way to know what “right” was. So they drifted into sentimentalism and skepticism and apostasy.
I don’t want to go that way.
So — even though it’s foreign to my upbringing and initially felt weird — I now ask my brothers and sisters in glory for their prayers on behalf of me and my family and others.
My doing so is wrapped up in my trust of Christ and the Holy Spirit not to abandon us for many centuries.
This line of reasoning helps me. If it does not help you, disregard it of course! And I do not argue that it is mathematically certain. But I can’t bring myself to bet against it.
from comment 88
But, speaking purely speculatively, how do you know that the saints have to hear our prayers in order to consciously associate themselves with them? The passage in Revelation depicts saints consciously and intentionally offering the prayers of Christians on earth. It leaves unstated whether this intentional offering involves a conscious knowledge of each petition, or only a general knowledge. The passage in 2 Kings also suggests that saints don’t need conscious awareness in order for their mediation to be efficacious. What Holy Scripture does teach, without question, is that the relics of saints (Elisha, Peter) have been used by God to effect miracles in the lives of the faithful and that the saints in heaven intentionally associate themselves with our prayers. How do you know that detailed knowledge of our petitions would be necessary for their intercession? Why couldn’t the saints say, “God, please hear the prayers of all who seek my intercession.”
from comment 89
comment 160 from http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2014/02/do-the-saints-pray-for-us-a-response-to-perry-sukstorf-and-marcia-fleischman/http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2014/02/do-the-saints-pray-for-us-a-response-to-perry-sukstorf-and-marcia-fleischman/But, speaking purely speculatively, how do you know that the saints have to hear our prayers in order to consciously associate themselves with them? The passage in Revelation depicts saints consciously and intentionally offering the prayers of Christians on earth. It leaves unstated whether this intentional offering involves a conscious knowledge of each petition, or only a general knowledge. The passage in 2 Kings also suggests that saints don’t need conscious awareness in order for their mediation to be efficacious. What Holy Scripture does teach, without question, is that the relics of saints (Elisha, Peter) have been used by God to effect miracles in the lives of the faithful and that the saints in heaven intentionally associate themselves with our prayers. How do you know that detailed knowledge of our petitions would be necessary for their intercession? Why couldn’t the saints say, “God, please hear the prayers of all who seek my intercession.”
from comment 89
Your Q: Where does it say that departed Saints have full knowledge….?
My Answer: I don’t know of any verse that says specifically that the Saints have full knowledge of what happens here (maybe because there was no cause to), but I know of places where the bible implies this. We may not have full knowledge now, but we will not remain like this but be transformed when we meet the Lord. 1 John 3:2 says that when the Lord appears, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. This to me shows that there is a transforming experience when we go to heaven. We shall be heavenly beings.
As to whether they are like Angels in other regards apart from not marrying, I believe so. Luke 20:36 says that “they cannot die because they are like Angels”. So this is a second characteristics in which we are like Angels when in heaven, and don’t you think there could be others? Lets for a minute consider the Angels. They do most of the things that we would ordinarily attribute to God alone, but only THROUGH God. Perhaps our Lord didn’t talk about the resurrected brethren being able to hear us because that was not the issue at hand, and not because they cannot.
I will like you to consider Rev 5:8 where those in heaven are offering the prayers of the holy ones to God. How else will they offer these prayers if they they don’t have knowledge of them. Now, if you like lets not say hear, but sense or know, or anything that means they, through the power of God just like the Angels, have knowledge of our prayers. Our Lord makes one strong point. In Mark 12:24 he chides the Jewish leaders for knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God. The power of God can make those who are born of the resurrection hear us in a way different from that of any saint here on earth. The Psalmist in Psalm 148 seems to agree, for he addresses the Hosts of heaven to praise God.
My Answer: I don’t know of any verse that says specifically that the Saints have full knowledge of what happens here (maybe because there was no cause to), but I know of places where the bible implies this. We may not have full knowledge now, but we will not remain like this but be transformed when we meet the Lord. 1 John 3:2 says that when the Lord appears, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. This to me shows that there is a transforming experience when we go to heaven. We shall be heavenly beings.
As to whether they are like Angels in other regards apart from not marrying, I believe so. Luke 20:36 says that “they cannot die because they are like Angels”. So this is a second characteristics in which we are like Angels when in heaven, and don’t you think there could be others? Lets for a minute consider the Angels. They do most of the things that we would ordinarily attribute to God alone, but only THROUGH God. Perhaps our Lord didn’t talk about the resurrected brethren being able to hear us because that was not the issue at hand, and not because they cannot.
I will like you to consider Rev 5:8 where those in heaven are offering the prayers of the holy ones to God. How else will they offer these prayers if they they don’t have knowledge of them. Now, if you like lets not say hear, but sense or know, or anything that means they, through the power of God just like the Angels, have knowledge of our prayers. Our Lord makes one strong point. In Mark 12:24 he chides the Jewish leaders for knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God. The power of God can make those who are born of the resurrection hear us in a way different from that of any saint here on earth. The Psalmist in Psalm 148 seems to agree, for he addresses the Hosts of heaven to praise God.
There is this anti catholic preacher, Matt Slick who has an interesting take on Rev 5:8 that you might want to consider. He believes that the Saints in heaven can hear us, but that praying to them is a sin.http://carm.org/praying-saints-biblical. Very interesting, but am not saying you should believe they can hear us because this man does though. But it points to the confusion that can arise when we o against an established christian tradition.
Lets now look at christian tradition:
Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Anonymous
“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).
“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).
“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . ” (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . ” (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).
from comment 101
“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).
from comment 101
But what about praying for their intercession before they’re canonized? If we don’t know they’re in heaven, why would we be justified in praying to them? (Perhaps they’re in purgatory, or even in hell if they committed a mortal sin prior to death). I don’t see how it’s okay to pray to saints before they’re canonized.
I think you are right to show hesitance in praying to those who might not be in heaven or on their way to heaven. Church tradition has been divided on the question, and to my knowledge there has been no definitive Church teaching on the subject. In favor of souls in purgatory praying for us include St. Alphonsus Liguori:
They are unable to pray or merit anything for themselves, yet, when they pray for others, they are heard by God.
and St. John Vianney:
If one knew what we may obtain from God by the intercession of the Poor Souls, they would not be so much abandoned. Let us pray a great deal for them; they will pray for us.
Alternatively, St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa writes,
Those who are in Purgatory though they are above us on account of their impeccability, yet they are below us as to the pains which they suffer: and in this respect they are not in a condition to pray, but rather in a condition that requires us to pray for them.
However, St. Robert Bellarmine did not find St. Thomas persuasive on the subject, and argues that in virtue of their greater love of God and their union with Him, their prayers may have great intercessory power, for they are really superior to us in love of God, and in intimacy of union with Him (De Purgatorio, lib. II, xv). I tend to agree with Bellarmine, as I don’t understand why their pain would create a condition where they are unable to pray for us. I would add that those in purgatory are closer to God than we are, since they are already on their way to Beatific Vision, and as they are in the process of being cleansed, would seem to qualify as the “righteous men” described in James 5:16 as being able to offer prayers “powerful and effective.” Furthermore, to ask for their prayers would be to exercise the virtue of hope that those who died exhibiting faith are on their way to God. Not to say that we have access to the mind of God regarding whether any specific person is in heaven – but we can certainly exercise the virtue of hope, especially when we have good evidence and reason for such hope. in
1. We know from Scripture (even limited to the reduced Protestant canon) that because of “the power of God” those in Christ who have “fallen asleep” are to be understood as “the living” not “the dead”;
2. We know from Scripture (even limited to the reduced Protestant canon) that we are surrounded by a “great cloud of witnesses” (and it follows that they could not be “witnesses,” nor could they cheer for us as we “run the race,” if they were clueless about events in our lives;
3. We know from Scripture (even limited to the reduced Protestant canon) that there is much rejoicing in Heaven when a sinner repents…and it is reasonable to assume that this rejoicing is not merely from the angels, inasmuch as it would be strange for the angels to suddenly start rejoicing only for the oblivious saints to ask, “Hey, what’s going on? What’s the celebration for?” and the angels to refuse to answer;
4. We know from Scripture (even limited to the reduced Protestant canon) that Christians are bidden to pray for one another;
5. We know from Scripture (even limited to the reduced Protestant canon) that Christians are allowed to request prayer from each other;
6. We know from Scripture (even limited to the reduced Protestant canon) that “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much”;
7. We know from Scripture (even limited to the reduced Protestant canon) no imperfect or sinful thing is in Heaven, and consequently that all Heaven’s inhabitants are very, very righteous indeed;
8. We know therefore that the saints in Heaven are already interceding for us to some degree, inasmuch as they are alive and righteous and aware of our difficulties, and are therefore not disobeying the injunction to pray for their brothers and sisters, but praying for us and “availing much” by doing so.
9. The only Scripturally-sound objection to asking saints to intercede for us, therefore, is not over whether we are allowed to ask the saints to pray for us, or whether they hear us, but rather, whether they’re already praying for us as much as they’re ever going to, whether we ask them to do so, or not! (But the same could be said about prayers to God, so this objection really doesn’t get far.)
10. More broadly, this whole topic cannot be properly understood without pointing out that the almost the whole theology of Paul revolves around Christ’s revelation to Paul on the Damascus road that Christians are parts of Christ’s body and that when Paul persecuted Christians, he was persecuting Christ. Paul hammers this theme again and again.
For this reason, it is simply false (if one holds a Scriptural, Pauline ecclesiology) to assert that people who ask the saints for their intercession are neglecting to pray to Christ. The saints are in Christ, like my muscle cells and bones are in me. When the saints on earth did works of grace led by the Holy Spirit, it was Christ working through them. It was no longer they who lived, but Christ who lived in them. When they suffered for His sake, He suffered and thus their suffering, united to His, had real merit. And when the saints ask Our Father to help us, Christ is asking Our Father to help us.
=
The old joke is that, when someone is not listening to what you are saying to them, they turn their heads away from you, put their palm out in your direction, and say, “Talk to the hand.” Well, those who are in Christ are (in a real-if-mysterious way, not a merely symbolical or analogical way) His hands, and His feet. They are in Christ. When you talk to the saints, you are “talking to the hand” (or the foot, or the eye). But “the hand” is part of Christ. (We are not Gnostics; we do not believe that the body is extraneous or dismissible; we believe rather that the body and soul together are the person.) So when you “talk to the hand” (or the foot, or the eye) you are talking to Christ. When He tells us “talk to the hand” He isn’t ignoring us; He is rather glorifying those whom He loves, for whom He died, by allowing them to have a participation in His own intercessory work.
And isn’t that just like Our Father, to set things up that way? He is always doing that: He is always allowing us to participate in our lesser ways in doing things which He could “do better for Himself,” so to speak. Does Jesus need saints praying for His disciples who remain on earth? Of course not. But Our Father’s heart is gladdened not only when His Firstborn Son does His will, but also when Jesus’ adopted little brothers and sisters also join in. Given all of this, one must wonder: What went so badly wrong with the Scriptural exegesis and ecclesiology and Christology of some denominations, that they don’t preach the intercession of the saints?
from comment 173 http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2014/02/do-the-saints-pray-for-us-a-response-to-perry-sukstorf-and-marcia-fleischman/#comments :
You quote from a footnote and say, "Notice they say nothing about these cloud of witnesses being aware of us." This is like me quoting the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States and noting, "Notice they say nothing about The United States having won independence from the British." One doesn't, in a footnote, have to spell out every obvious implication of a particular passage; nor does a failure to do so prevent that implication from being true.
You then say, "It is true that Scripture tells us to pray for one another. It never tells us to pray to the dead...," but, Pat, John the Baptist and Peter and Paul and Timothy and Silas and Mary are significantly more alive than any earthly person you've ever asked to pray for you...people walking around with bodies that decay with time? With habits that still lead them into sin? Shouldn't I admonish you, Pat, for how you have sometimes asked these near-corpses whom you happen to know to pray for you?
You catch me asking the liveliest folk I know -- people currently enraptured in the Everlasting Divine Life of the Trinity -- for their prayers and accuse me of "praying to the dead!" By that standard, why shouldn't I accuse you of "praying to the dead" catch you asking favors of people who won't even last another two hundred years?
Then you quote Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 and 10; these tell us of the status of those in Sheol; not those in Heaven. (But there is a difference!)
You then draw a conclusion: "This tells us that the dead have nothing more to do with this world." But have you not read Luke 16:19-31? Do you not notice the irony that Jesus named the character in this particular story as "Lazarus?" Do you think Lazarus, having died, had nothing more to do with this world? And doesn't the rich man who died plead -- fruitlessly in this case, but the rich man was not a saint -- for his brothers? If even a sinner in fire pleads for mercy for those on earth, how much more a saint in Heaven? Are the saints in Heaven less compassionate than sinners?
Or consider Matthew 27:51-53: Did the "holy people who had died" make any impression on the people of Jerusalem? And I have already alluded to Luke 15; are the angels the sole occupants of Heaven, the only ones who celebrate when a sinner repents? And what about at the general resurrection? Will those who have died say, "Nope, sorry; we've died; we can't get involved in any events on earth ever again?" What about the souls of the martyrs in Revelation 6? Don't they plead with God to avenge the blood of the martyrs? (Not, I think, an uninvolved attitude.)
Or, to return to the passage in Hebrews: The "cloud of witnesses": Are they not the saints in glory? (I say, "in glory" because, standing in the divine presence, that is precisely where they are, in the shekinah; hence, a "cloud" of witnesses.) And are they not in this passage depicted as spectators in a stadium, observing an athletic competition? What do such spectators do? Do they not cheer for the competitors, and thereby encourage them? They are not on the field, but one would never say that they were uninvolved.
You add, "The temporary exceptions were Samuel, Moses and Elijah. After these incidents we don’t find anyone praying to them." But Jews from time immemorial prayed at Rachel's tomb asking her to intercede with God on their behalf (often in maternal matters). And Christians continued this tradition from the start, that Moses is "Saint Moses" and Elijah is "Saint Elijah" in ancient tradition. That it doesn't immediately occur to you or me to murmur, "Hey, Moses, join me in praying that God would help me resist uncontrolled outbursts of anger when I see injustice" means that you and I were not raised as first-century Jews who then became Christians. But the Apostles were.
You state, "There is no reason to pray to the dead for the mere fact that Christ alone is our High Priest Who intercedes for us..." ...which doesn't follow. Christ (not "Christ alone," mind you; how can a person whose very body contains millions of other persons ever be called "alone?!") is certainly our High Priest; but how is that pertinent to the question? Aaron was the High Priest at the time of the Exodus; but that didn't prevent an Israelite from asking another Israelite to pray for them...or even, to take a lamb or some grain to Aaron to ask Aaron to offer a sacrifice on their behalf. Now we have a far better High Priest than Aaron or his sons; but our fellow Israelites can still pray for us.
I think what you're missing here, Pat, is the ecclesiology of the Apostle Paul. Paul/Saul learned it from Jesus when Jesus blinded Saul en route to Damascus saying, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" And you know the story: Saul answered, "Not so, Lord; I was just persecuting your followers, which isn't the same thing," and Jesus answered, "Oh, nevermind then."
Kidding!
No, it didn't go quite that way, did it? Jesus revealed to Saul that when you persecute a Christian, you are persecuting an organ in the body of Christ -- His hands, or His feet, or His eye. They are "in Christ": Notice that, despite the doctrine of the Eucharist, the Pauline Epistles say that we are "in Christ" about ten times more often than they say Christ is "in us." Jesus' words to Saul on the Damascus road were an epiphany; Paul constantly reiterates our membership -- not like people signing up for an organization, but like cells in an organism -- in the body of Christ. It's not mere analogy; it's metaphysical and miraculous reality.
And that's why the priestly ministry of Christ's ordained clergy is just a sharing in the priestly ministry of Jesus Christ. The mission of forgiving men's sins is shared by Jesus with His Apostles and their successors: "Whosoever's sins you forgive...." When the Apostles preached, they also commended those who heeded them for receiving their words not as mere words from men, but "the word of God.": They had a share in the preaching ministry of the Divine Logos Himself.
Thus, when a saint (whether he is in Heaven already, or on earth) intercedes for a fellow Christian, is he praying "apart from Christ?" Of course not! (How is that even possible? "It is God Himself who works within you....")
No, the saint who intercedes is "in Christ" and thus participates in Christ's intercessory ministry. Does Christ need any help? Of course not! But love is not like that; love does not say, "I can do this myself, so go away and don't join in with me." Love says, "I am doing this; how happy it makes me that you also want to do it with me!" God starts beaming with pride when the saints intercede.
Or, to put it another way: God is a good Father. He is pleased by the obedience of His firstborn Son, naturally. But He has also adopted many other sons and daughters, and is pleased when these adopted children join His Only Begotten in conducting the family business...which includes intercession for those who need it.
found here below http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4620#114--Note--you have to scroll to the part above angels
VENERATION OF THE SAINTS AND BEATI
208. The cult of the Saints, especially of the martyrs, is an ancient ecclesial phenomenon, that is rooted in the Scriptures (cf. Act 7, 54-60; Acts 6, 9-11; 7, 9-17) and the practise of the Church of the first half of the second century265. Both Eastern and Western Churches have always venerated the Saints. The Church has strenuously defended and explicitated the theological basis of this cult, especially since the rise of protestantism and its objections to certain aspects of the traditional veneration of the Saints. The connection between the cult of the Saints and the doctrine of the Church has also been clearly illustrated. The cultic expressions, both liturgical and devotional, of the veneration have always been carefully disciplined by the Church, which has always stressed the exemplary testimony to genuine Christian life given by these illustrious disciples of the Lord.
209. When treating of the Liturgical Year, Sacrosanctum Concilium effectively illustrates this ecclesial reality and the significance of the veneration of the Saints and Beati: "The Church has always included in the annual cycle memorial days of the martyrs and other saints. Raised up to perfection by the manifold grace of God and already in possession of eternal salvation, they sing God's perfect praise in heaven and pray for us. By celebrating their anniversaries, the Church proclaims the achievement of the paschal mystery in the saints who have suffered and who have been glorified with Christ. She proposes them to the faithful as examples who draw all men to the Father through Christ, and through their merits she begs God's favours"266.
210. A correct understanding of the Church's doctrine on the Saints is only possible in the wider context of the articles of faith concerning:
- the "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"267, Holy because of the presence in the Church of "Jesus Christ who, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, is proclaimed as the "sole Holy One"268; because of the incessant action of the Spirit of holiness269; and because the Church has been given the necessary means of sanctification. While the Church does have sinners in her midst, she "is endowed already with a sanctity which is real though imperfect"270; she is "the Holy People of God"271, whose members, according to Scripture, are called "Saints" (cf. Acts 9, 13; 1 Cor 6, 1; 16,1).
- the "communion of Saints"272 through which the Church in heaven, the Church awaiting purification "in the state of Purgatory"273, and the pilgrim Church on earth share "in the same love of God and neighbour"274. Indeed, all who are in Christ and posses his Spirit make up a single Church and are united in him.
- the doctrine of the sole mediation of Christ (cf. 1 Tim 2, 3), which does not, however, exclude subordinate mediations, which must always be understood in relation to the all embracing mediation of Christ275.
211. The doctrine of the Church and her Liturgy, propose the Saints and Beati who already contemplate in the "clarity of His unity and trinity"276 to the faithful because they are:
- historical witnesses to the universal vocation to holiness; as eminent fruit of the redemption of Christ, they are a poof and record that God calls his children to the perfection of Christ (cf. Ef 4, 13; Col 1, 28), in all times and among all nations, and from the most varied socio-cultural conditions and states of life;
- illustrious disciples of Christ and therefore models of evangelical life277; the church recognises the heroicness of their virtues in the canonization process and recommends them as models for the faithful;
- citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem who ceaselessly sing the glory and mercy of God; the Paschal passage from this world to the Father has already been accomplished in them;
- intercessors and friends of the faithful who are still on the earthly pilgrimage, because the Saints, already enraptured by the happiness of God, know the needs of their brothers and sisters and accompany them on their pilgrim journey with their prayers and protection;
- patrons of the Local Churches, of which they were founders (St. Eusebius of Vercelli) or illustrious Pastors (St. Ambrose of Milan); patrons of nations: apostles of their conversion to the Christian faith (St Thomas and St. Bartholomew in India) or expressions of national identity ( St. Patrick in the case of Ireland); of corporations and professions (St. Omobono for tailors); in particular circumstances — in childbirth (St. Anne, St. Raimondo Nonato), in death (St. Joseph) — or to obtain specific graces (St. Lucy for the recovery of eyesight) etc..
In thanksgiving to God the Father, the Church professes all this when she proclaims "You give us an example to follow in the lives of your Saints, assistance by their intercession, and a bond of fraternal love in the communion of grace"278.
212. The ultimate object of veneration of the Saints is the glory of God and the sanctification of man by conforming one's life fully to the divine will and by imitating the virtue of those who were preeminent disciples of the Lord.
Catechesis and other forms of doctrinal instruction should therefore make known to the faithful that: our relationship with the Saints must be seen in the light of the faith and should not obscure the "cultus latriae due to God the Father through Christ in the Holy Spirit, but intensify it"; "true cult of the Saints consists not so much in the multiplication of external acts but in intensification of active charity", which translates into commitment to the Christian life279.
