what does it mean that Christ died? how can God die?

from comment 36  here http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/04/aquinas-and-trent-part-6/

In a post titled “Did God Die on the Cross?” and dated “March 25, 2013,” Ligonier posted the following by R.C. Sproul:

Some say, “It was the second person of the Trinity Who died.” That would be a mutation within the very being of God, because when we look at the Trinity we say that the three are one in essence, and that though there are personal distinctions among the persons of the Godhead, those distinctions are not essential in the sense that they are differences in being. Death is something that would involve a change in one’s being.

We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the cross. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ. Somehow people tend to think that this lessens the dignity or the value of the substitutionary act, as if we were somehow implicitly denying the deity of Christ. God forbid. It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death.

Sproul is here rightly concerned to protect the doctrine of the immutability of the divine nature. But he thinks that in order to protect this doctrine, it cannot be the case that the Second Person of the Trinity died on the cross. Therefore Sproul claims that the atonement “was made by the human nature of Christ.” This would entail either (a) that no Person suffered, died, and made atonement for our sins, but only some impersonal, created thing did all that for us, or (b) that a non-divine person suffered, died, and made atonement for us. The latter position is a form of the heresy of Nestorianism, condemned at the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in AD 431. The former position would nullify the efficacy of the atonement for our sins for the same reason that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins (Heb. 10:4); the sacrifice of Christ by which He made satisfaction for our sins is of such great value and worth precisely because the Lamb who was slain for our sins is God, not a mere creature.

Sproul adds that “It’s the God-man Who dies.” But this just raises the following dilemma. Either the “God-man” is the same Person as the Second Person of the Trinity, or the “God-man” is not the same Person as “Second Person of the Trinity.” If the former horn of the dilemma, then if the “God-man” died, then the “Second Person of the Trinity” died, and Sproul is here contradicting what he said in the first excerpted paragraph. But if the latter horn of the dilemma, then [either (a) or (b)], or (c) the First or Third Person of the Trinity suffered, died, and made atonement for us. The consequence of both horns of that dilemma are deeply problematic, for obvious reasons.

By contrast, the Catholic Church teaches that it was not a nature that suffered, died and made atonement, but the Second Person of the Trinity who suffered, died, and made atonement for us in His human nature. We say in the Nicene Creed:

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,

The same Person who “came down from heaven” and “was incarnate of the Virgin Mary” is the same Person who “was crucified under Pontius Pilate” and “suffered death and was buried.” That Person is the Second Person of the Trinity, not an impersonal nature or created thing. When we say that Christ suffered death, we do not mean that there was a change in the divine nature, but that He endured the separation of His soul from His body. Canon 12 of the Council of Ephesus (which condemned Nestorianism) reads: “If anyone does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh, and tasted death in the flesh, and was made the firstborn from the dead [Col. 1:18] according to which as God He is both the life and the life-giver, let him be anathema.”

So what lies behind the reason for Sproul’s claims that the Second Person of the Trinity did not die, and that a mere human nature suffered, died, and made atonement for us? It seems to me that denying that the Second Person of the Trinity suffered and died for us on the cross is the result of multiple factors. One factor, I think, is Protestantism’s denial (or general unwillingness to affirm) that Mary is the Theotokos (Mother of God). If she gave birth only to a human nature, then only a human nature suffered and died on the cross. But if she gave birth to the Second Person of the Trinity, then the Second Person of the Trinity suffered, died, and made atonement for us. Another factor is Protestant adherence to sola scriptura, according to which councils, including the Council of Ephesus, have no authority, and are ultimately unnecessary: “the whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture.” (Westminster Confession of Faith I.6)

[later in comment 48

It is possible, as you say, that Sproul meant to say that in His divine nature the Second Person of the Trinity cannot die. It is possible that he meant to say that Christ made atonement for us in His human nature. But that’s not what he actually said, and philosopher-theologians with his training have the necessary skill (and responsibility) to say what they mean and not say what they don’t mean. My criticism is not of his motives, or even of his [personal] Christology, but of what he actually said in this document he published in 2007, posted online in 2012, and reposted again in 2013 after it was criticized widely in 2012. If he has expressed Chalcedonian Christology elsewhere, then I’m very glad for that. But that doesn’t make true what he says here, even if the error is due to sloppiness; nor does it justify posting and reposting an excerpt that is Christologically heterodox. (See James 3:1)

from an article here Nick's Catholic blog Wed April 2, 2014:

Trent confirms this in the Lesson on Article IV of the Apostles Creed (where the Creed says Christ was "crucified, died, and buried"): 

The pastor should explain that these words present for our belief that Jesus Christ, after He was crucified, really died and was buried. It is not without just reason that this is proposed to the faithful as a separate object of belief, since there were some who denied His death upon the cross. The Apostles, therefore, were justly of opinion that to such an error should be opposed the doctrine of faith contained in this Article, the truth of which is placed beyond the possibility of doubt by the united testimony of all the Evangelists, who record that Jesus yielded up the ghost. . . .When, therefore, we say that Jesus died, we mean that His soul was disunited from His body.

Notice that spiritual death, which is more important in the Protestant scheme, is strikingly absent! Again, it is plain that when the Church speaks of Christ suffering death, the only thing meant is a physical death, not a spiritual death. [4] By this fact alone, the Church dogma doesn't allow Penal Substitution, since He didn't suffer the right type of punishment the Protestant view requires (i.e. spiritual death by the breaking of communion with the Father). [5] But there's more!

Second of all, it's theologically impossible for Christ to undergo spiritual death. BasicChristology, which was confirmed in the Ecumenical Councils, is reiterated plainly throughout Catholic tradition, and particularly clear many places in the Catechism, withparagraph 650 being the most helpful: 

The Fathers contemplate the Resurrection from the perspective of the divine person of Christ who remained united to his soul and body, even when these were separated from each other by death: [Gregory of Nyssa says] "By the unity of the divine nature, which remains present in each of the two components of man, these are reunited. For as death is produced by the separation of the human components, so Resurrection is achieved by the union of the two."

 Again, this is basic Christology, and Catholics have always been careful to not violate Christology in any sense. [6] Unfortunately, Protestants often eschew advanced theology and philosophy, so they run right into Christological heresy when they insist that Jesus underwent a spiritual death. This weak theological foundation is why you have big name Reformed Protestants saying Jesus was cut-off from the Father, that the Father broke fellowship with the Son, that the Son was "damned," etc. But this is plainly impossible once you realize Jesus is a Divine Person with a Divine Nature and human nature permanently united. How could Jesus spiritually die (the soul losing the indwelling of the Holy Trinity) when the union was so permanent that His Divinity remained united to his body and soul even after the two separated? And even more problematic is that "spiritual death" means it was the Divine Person of Son who would be cut-off from the Divine Person of Father, not merely the Son being cut off from human nature. In other words, it's heresy (Nestorianism) to suggest the Divine Son (a Person) could only suffer broken communion in His humanity, since it is Persons who form communion with other Persons, not natures (alone) in communion with natures. So "cutting off" the Son would, by definition, destroy the Trinity, since it severs Christ'svery Sonship. 

Even though Protestants are insistent that the Trinity was not destroyed, they lack the theological foundation to realize that is in fact what Penal Substitution amounts to. And since the Catholic Church affirms basic Christology, clearly affirmed in the above quotes regarding Christ's death (the very thing under consideration now), this makes itimpossible for any Catholic to affirm Penal Substitution

(4) How is physical suffering and death for a mere few hours sufficient to atone for an infinite offense against God? Catholic theology has a good explanation for this, and it's been consistently taught by all the great minds of the Church, especially by Aquinas (ST 3:48:2.3): "The dignity of Christ's flesh is not to be estimated solely from the nature of flesh, but also from the Person assuming it--namely, inasmuch as it was God's flesh, the result of which was that it was of infinite worth." And in Ott's Fundamentals we read:

The intrinsic reason of the adequacy of Christ's atonement lies in the Hypostatic Union. Christ's actions possess an intrinsic infinite value, because the [person doing the action acting] is the Divine Person of the Logos. Thus Christ's atonement was, through its intrinsic value, sufficient to counterbalance the infinite insult offered to God.

....................................................... . As Ott explains: 

The act of sacrifice consisted in the fact that Christ, in a disposition of the most perfect self-surrender, voluntarily gave up His life to God by permitting His enemies to kill Him, although He had the power of preventing it.
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Bk3:Pt2:Ch2:Sec8)

And St Thomas confirms: 

"Christ's Passion was indeed a malefice on His slayers' part; but on His own it was the sacrifice of one suffering out of charity. Hence it is Christ who is said to have offered this sacrifice, and not the executioners" (ST 3:48:3.3)

 So Christ, acting as High Priest, offered up his life by refusing to hate his enemies in the midst of persecution. [7] This is precisely what St Peter meant when he interpreted Isaiah 53 for us in his First Epistle (I wrote about this HERE). I don't really see how Protestants can affirm Christ as High Priest because in the Penal Substitution view it is God inflicting the "punishment" on the sacrifice, which effectively strips the High Priesthood from Jesus and gives it to the one Person who cannot be High Priest, God the Father (Who is on the receiving end of the Sacrifice)! (I wrote about this inANOTHER ARTICLE). So, yet another reason why the Catholic understanding of Atonement isn't compatible with Penal Substitution. 

(6) Why do Catholic documents state that Jesus endured the worst sufferings humanly possible, particularly in His soul, if not to indicate He suffered the (equivalent) pains of hellfire itself? This is a good question and requires some explanation, as well as sufficiently understanding all of what has been said up to this point in the article. 

The Catechism of Trent explains in Article IV of the Creed (quoted freely): 

It cannot be a matter of doubt that His soul as to its inferior part was sensible of these torments; for as He really assumed human nature it is a necessary consequence that He really, and in His soul, experienced a most acute sense of pain. Hence these words of the Savior: My soul is sorrowful even unto death. ... Although human nature was united to the Divine Person, He felt the bitterness of His Passion as acutely as if no such union had existed. 

That Christ our Lord suffered the most excruciating torments of mind and body is certain. In the first place, there was no part of His body that did not experience the most agonizing torture. His hands and feet were fastened with nails to the cross; His head was pierced with thorns and smitten with a reed; His face was befouled with spittle and buffeted with blows; His whole body was covered with stripes.

His agony was increased by the very constitution and frame of His body. Formed by the power of the Holy Ghost, it was more perfect and better organized than the bodies of other men can be, and was therefore endowed with a superior susceptibility and a keener sense of all the torments which it endured. . . . Christ our Lord tempered with no admixture of sweetness the bitter chalice of His Passion butpermitted His human nature to feel as acutely every species of torment as if He were only man, and not also God.

It is important to distinguish between Christ suffering divine spiritual torments (i.e. the Father's wrath, spiritual death) versus suffering human emotional torments. This is why the Catechism speaks of Christ suffering in the "inferior part" of His soul, meaning the emotions and mental anguish. Aquinas elaborates on what this mental anguish consisted of in ST 3:46:5,

For Christ suffered from friends abandoning Him; in His reputation, from the blasphemies hurled at Him; in His honor and glory, from the mockeries and the insults heaped upon Him; in things, for He wasdespoiled of His garments; in His soul, from sadness, weariness, and fear; in His body, from wounds and scourgings.

Note that none of this suffering of Christ's soul is said to be of the divine type, God's anger, etc, as Protestants teach. In that link, Aquinas specifically rules out the idea Jesus suffered every type of suffering, because Jesus didn't endure every type of suffering, most especially not being cut-off from the Father. And that's the key. Even though Jesus was made capable of suffering worse than anyone ever suffered, this wasn't due to suffering certain types of pains. And thus there's no actual basis to say that Jesus suffered the equivalent of hellfire or anything similar, because intensity of suffering isn't the same as type of suffering. Christ's sufferings of body and soul were of the 'temporal' ('physical') type only.

Such distinctions show that in Catholic teaching, Jesus did not (and earlier it was shown He could not) suffer the pains of being spiritually cut-off from the Father, as Penal Substitution requires, despite affirming that Jesus did in fact endure the worst suffering a person has ever suffered, including in His soul. 

(7) A Reformed Protestant presented a few quotes (which I'll share below) from John Paul II commenting on Jesus' words "My God, why have you forsaken me" that seem to be compatible with the  Protestants understanding of those words. What did John Paul II mean in those quotes? 

First off, I've covered this verse numerous times, so please just search my blog if you want to know more. Briefly, the Reformed interpretation is that Jesus was spiritually cut-off from the Father when He uttered these words, as the Father's wrath poured down upon Him while on the Cross. The Reformed insist that if you fail to affirm their interpretation of Jesus' words, then you've missed the very heart of Jesus' suffering on the Cross. But Catholic tradition is clear how these words are to be understood, with St Thomas Aquinas in his survey of ancient Christian commentary giving us the understood meaning: "God is said to have forsaken Him in death because He exposed Him to the power of His persecutors; He withdrew His protection, but did not break the union." [8] No Catholic document I've ever seen permits reading Christ's words as signifying Jesus enduring spiritual cutting-off, broken fellowship, the Father's wrath, etc. In fact, such talk is the furthest thing from the orthodox Catholic mind, as I've shown throughout this article thus far.

Now the two quotes from Blessed John Paul II are as follows, which I'll comment upon as I present them:

More than an experience of physical pain, his Passion is an agonizing suffering of the soul. Theological tradition has not failed to ask how Jesus could possibly experience at one and the same time his profound unity with the Father, by its very nature a source of joy and happiness, and an agony that goes all the way to his final cry of abandonment. The simultaneous presence of these two seemingly irreconcilable aspects is rooted in the fathomless depths of the hypostatic union.
(Apostolic Letter: Beginning the New Millennium, paragraph 26)

From this quote, the Protestant made the claim that John Paul is saying here that Jesus could, in some mysterious manner, experience both perfect communion with the Father while simultaneously experience cutting-off from the Father. It would seem two polar-opposite ideas are being affirmed, and thus the Reformed are free to say Jesus was simultaneously suffering eternal damnation while at the same time enjoying perfect Heavenly bliss. 

With all that I've said thus far, it shouldn't be hard to see the fallacy and error in this Protestant's claim. First of all, this Protestant is assuming John Paul is actually talking about Jesus being spiritually cut-off from the Father. But that's not correct (which I'll further demonstrate in a bit). Second of all, John Paul is clear that the great theological minds have asked and addressed this question, meaning it is not an open question that Catholics can just believe as they please on. The great theological minds have demonstrated what is true and what is false on many facets of the Mystery of Salvation. As I've already shown, there's no basis whatsoever to think the great Catholic minds ever saw Jesus suffering God's wrath as an option. Thirdly, it's absurd to think that John Paul (or any great Catholic theologian) was asserting a blatant contradiction, as if Jesus could be simultaneously in communion and not-in-communion with the Father. That's ridiculous. 

Now for John Paul's explanation in his very next paragraph:

Faced with this mystery, we are greatly helped not only by theological investigation but also by that great heritage which is the "lived theology" of the saints. The saints offer us precious insights which enable us to understand more easily the intuition of faith, thanks to the special enlightenment which some of them have received from the Holy Spirit... Not infrequently the saints have undergone something akin to Jesus' experience on the Cross in the paradoxical blending of bliss and pain. In the Dialogue of Divine Providence, God the Father shows Catherine of Siena how joy and suffering can be present together in holy souls: "Thus the soul is blissful and afflicted: afflicted on account of the sins of its neighbor, blissful on account of the union and the affection of charity which it has inwardly received. These souls imitate the spotless Lamb, my Only-begotten Son, who on the Cross was both blissful and afflicted".13 In the same way, Thérèse of Lisieux lived her agony in communion with the agony of Jesus, "experiencing" in herself the very paradox of Jesus's own bliss and anguish: "In the Garden of Olives our Lord was blessed with all the joys of the Trinity, yet his dying was no less harsh. It is a mystery, but I assure you that, on the basis of what I myself am feeling, I can understand something of it".14 What an illuminating testimony!

So what John Paul was talking about is simply this: How can a person who is so closely in communion with God also suffer 'negative' feelings like sadness, affliction, loneliness, etc? Well, since it's not a contradictory proposal, it's not impossible. But it certainly is mysterious, because you'd think that being in such intimate communion with God would include a certain comfort and safety that precludes feelings of sadness and such. Clearly, John Paul was not suggesting Jesus was enduring spiritual torments by God's angry wrath upon Him! Instead, Jesus' 'cry of final abandonment' is to be understood more along the lines of (but infinitely more acute than) the sadness that we all feel when in the midst of major suffering we ask ourselves "Why is God letting this happen to me?"

The second quote this Protestant provided was from John Paul's General Audience lecture from November 30, 1998, where the topic of that day was Christ's words of abandonment.

Here one can sketch a summary of Jesus’ psychological situation in relationship to God. The external events seemed to manifest the absence of the Father who permitted the crucifixion of his Son, though having at his disposal “legions of angels” (cf. Mt 26:53), without intervening to prevent his condemnation to death and execution. In Gethsemane Simon Peter had drawn a sword in Jesus’ defense, but was immediately blocked by Jesus himself (cf. Jn 18:10 f.). In the praetorium Pilate had repeatedly tried wily maneuvers to save him (cf. Jn 18:31, 38 f.; 19:4-6, 12-15); but the Father was silent. That silence of God weighed on the dying Jesus as the heaviest pain of all, so much so that his enemies interpreted that silence as a sign of his reprobation: He trusted in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God’ (Mt 27:43).

In the sphere of feelings and affection this sense of the absence and abandonment by God was the most acute pain for the soul of Jesus who drew his strength and joy from union with the Father. This pain rendered all the other sufferings more intense. That lack of interior consolation was Jesus’ greatest agony.

However, Jesus knew that by this ultimate phase of his sacrifice, reaching the intimate core of his being, he completed the work of reparation which was the purpose of his sacrifice for the expiation of sins. If sin is separation from God, Jesus had to experience in the crisis of his union with the Father a suffering proportionate to that separation.

Everything seems to be perfectly easy to understand and right in accord with the traditional Catholic interpretation of that verse. But then John Paul seems to throw a curve ball at the last sentence. This Protestant claims that in this last sentence, John Paul is indeed saying that Jesus did in fact suffer the equivalent pains of a lost soul in hellfire suffers. My response simply is that this is reading too much into the text. The context gives no reason to think this abandonment is that of a cut-off soul, and in fact the context already shows the type of abandonment. Jesus did experience the worst sufferings imaginable, and if the Father permitted all this to happen, then yes it's a profound mystery a loving God would allow that to happen to anyone, particularly His Son. And the fact that Jesus was still alive when He said "Father, into your hands I commend my Spirit" is in no way compatible with the idea that the Father was spiritually cut-off from Jesus.

In the end, these quotes this Protestant provided are simply pure desperation, scraping for whatever scraps Protestants can get their hands on to salvage a horribly blasphemous and unbiblical teaching. 

end of quote---- and then from some notes on the article:

 But Catholic tradition has always been clear that Jesus didn't endure hellfire, and rather this clause is talking about Jesus "descending into Hades" to rescue the Old Testament Saints on Holy Saturday, which is also why the Creed puts this clause after mentioning Christ's death and burial (signifying it's not part of His suffering). The Catechism of Trent speaks directly on this clause, explicitly saying that this was not the hell of the damned where Jesus went, but rather that "To liberate these holy souls, who, in the bosom of Abraham were expecting the Saviour, Christ the Lord descended into hell," and "Christ the Lord descended, on the contrary, not to suffer, but to liberate the holy and the just from their painful captivity." The Catechism says on this point that "he descended there as Savior" (See also CCC 632-633; Compendium Sec 125). So this "descent" of Christ had nothing to do with divine punishments.

see also http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2014/04/does-catholic-view-of-christs-atonement.html